Talk:Arnett McMillan/@comment-27788729-20160523202720/@comment-28400905-20160530145838
@Eevee: Using the description and definition given by the manga, and this wiki, Freezing is described as three things; 'a synchronization of hearts', 'the ultimate form of communication, beyond even an Ereinbar Set' and 'a sharing of consciences' between the people using it. Since that encompasses all thoughts and feelings desires, all desires, would naturally fall into it. Personally I'd imagine, based off those three canonical definitions that my explanation would be valid, why do you think it doesn't reveal their true desires taking into account the provided canonical definition thereof? If you want I can use a bit more technical terminology and say that Freezing; 'reveals what lies within Elly and Arnett's hearts and consciences' but I don't think that meaningfully effects my points since it remains a fact, then, that within Elly and Arnett's hearts and consciences lies an enormously strong desire to offer up themselves to Kazuya and submit to him completely. Which is something, clearly, that does not exist in their hearts or consciences with regards to André or Morrison, since they never express such sentiments when effected by them. Since I'm already attacked for writing to much I'm gonna try to stay a bit shorter this time (try) so my answers might not be too detailed, I'm really sorry about that, but if anything's unclear or seems underdeveloped feel free to ask and I'll try to expand on what I meant. So it seems you made two sort of 'outside' the story arguments; that there hasn't been enough build up to justify feelings from Elizabeth towards Kazuya, and that the manga isn't a NTR/Harem type. Just want to say that though I get where you're coming from here, I don't think these arguments, outside story ones, are the most persuasive. We can say something is bad writing on behalf of the author, or doesn't make sense, but if he says its canon, well, the its canon. I mean lots of stories, all stories, have stuff which doesn't make sense or seems inexplicable but if the author says that's how it is, sadly, that's how it is. So for the point about there 'not being enough shown' between Elizabeth and Kazuya, well, personally I think that's a bit of a weak argument. Firstly, in stories, and ecchi manga and harem manga particularly, girls often fall in love or crush on a guy just from one encounter. That's pretty standard. Even in Freezing Rana doesn't really know Kazuya at all before she's pretty much declaring him her one true love and risking her life for him. So I don't think the lack of build up really counts, tons of stories have girls fall in love with a guy, usually the protagonist, on the drop of a dime. I mean, don't get me wrong, I think its really bad writing, its why I dislike most harems and ecchi and hentai stuff, but bad writing doesn't excuse that its canon to the story. If Elly's shown, via Freezing, to want to give herself up to Kazuya completely and be his servant then, well, much as I don't like it and think its bad writing, that's the canon. The fact that its unbelievable to me doesn't change that its happened, you know? Then the NTR/Harem thing, well, here I think we just disagree a bit. Knowing LDY I just think it was a matter of time. Besides there's been a pretty big tone shift in terms of the protagonist since 196. Probably to appease a predominantly male audience who've been complaining about him for ages. Alright so then you said; "Elizabeth's really autonomous, she'd never be subservient to anyone" and this really is confusing to me since, from 196 on, we've seen that she would be subservient, to Kazuya specifically, so its not really true to say she'd never be subservient to anyone. I mean she literally says she wants to be Kazuya's obedient servant. It seems out of character to me, again I think making the power be erotic was bad writing, but if the author says that's what Elly thinks and feels then that's what Elly thinks and feels. As for why she feels this way, Citrus already said, the 'Stigamtic Body' makes all Pandora feel this way, makes them want to be obedient, to never leave Kazuya's side and to want to leave everything to him. That's an enormous amount of emotional intimacy, many relationships never even reach the stage where the partners are comfortable enough with each other to totally entrust themselves. Since Su-Na's a Pandora I'd figure she'd have to feel the same way. She's special to the author, for sure, I wouldn't be surprised if the author pulled out that she's different in some way, but until such evidence is provided, yeah, she's still a Pandora so presumably she'll behave just like Gengo's said. This is all an assumption, of course, since we only know for sure how Arnett, Elly, Satellizer and Ticy feel. I might be wrong. I'm a bit confused, why do you say; 'if all Pandora feel this way' as if that somehow makes it less believable? I mean if all Pandora feel that way then they feel that way, I'm not quite sure what you mean there. Also why do you say "Kazuya's Freezing makes them feel a certain way?" I mean its not mind control so, explicitly, anything Arnett and Elly felt was their own feelings. Its an important distinction to make, Kazuya didn't mind control them or effect them, this is more comparable to, like the one anon's said before, Arnett and Elly saw Kazuya intimately for the first time and instantly realized they feel more love and devotion for him then they do for anyone else. I just want to make clear that if its not mind control then you can't blame his Freezing for making them feel a certain way. If they feel certain emotions in reaction to his Freezing, his synchronizing with their hearts, then unless there was mind control involved and so their free will was compromised, that's simply their genuine feelings. Or are you trying to argue that you think his Freezing has some 'additional' mind control property to it which normal Freezing doesn't have? Because if you are, I would like to know what your evidence for it is. I thought you agreed it was only body control, meaning all their thoughts and feelings were their own. I presume if you remove the Stigma that she'd potentially be in love with someone else, maybe someone different to either Kazuya or André, but it wouldn't be Kazuya for sure the way it is with Stigma. But I don't see why this matters? The Stigma are part of Elly, of all Pandora, like any other donor or artificial organ, its not like the Stigma have their own minds or split personality, their just part of Elly. If the Stigma cause Elly to want to be Kazuya's subservient and submissive girl then that's just like my brain makes me want to wish that Elly will be happier and in love with André. If I can ask...what is this line between Elly's true feelings and her feelings under Kazuya's Freezing? What makes you say the one's under Kazuya's Freezing don't count? I'd be really interested how, if you say its not mind control, you determine what this line is. So then the bit, about it being unfair to compare André and Kazuya's Freezing (by the way, for really petty reasons this part super depresses me) I'm a little unclear about. I mean yeah, totally, one can't change the fact that Kazuya's Freezing is way better than André's. But that doesn't have a bearing on the issue, I think. I mean a Freezing is just a synchronizing of hearts, it feels good because of what Elly's heart feels for Kazuya's, or how it reacts to Kazuya's. When you say its unfair it feels like, like saying that if a girl really, really, really super-enjoys being with this one guy, loves being with him because she finds him attractive, compelling, intoxicating and really interesting but she also has a boyfriend who just...isn't as interesting, exciting or attractive to her then its 'unfair' to compare them. I mean, I agree, you can't blame André, but you can't blame Kazuya or Elly either. Elly is just way happier, excited and pleased when she's under Kazuya's influence then if she's with André in any setting. This point, by the way, super-depresses me, because it means that André now has to live with the knowledge that no matter what he does, no matter how hard he tries, nothing he does will ever make Elly feel even a little bit as happy and pleased as Kazuya can make her feel with a hand wave. That's really heart breaking. As Citrus, and others, have said, they're just misinterpreting it and feeling guilty. Maybe if they complained about the body control I'd be more inclined to side with you but, in the chapter, they pretty much just talk about their feelings. Since its been established that Kazuya didn't control those, its just their natural experience of his will, that means they have no right to blame him for it. Sadly the situation now seems like one where you had, like, two couples, husband and wife, and then the wives did this intimate thing with this stranger and both instantly started feeling super horny and super submissive, wanting to give themselves and everything they had to this guy, but because the two also were still rational they were worried about what it would mean for their past relationships and so blamed him, Kazuya, when they really have no right too. Gosh I'm such an idiot, it turned out super long again anyway, and I haven't even responded to Godric, JMac or that anon. Eevee I hope this clarifies what I'm saying, I think I might have messed up one of my paragraphs but its a start. @JMac: I just really think its improper to be able to swear at someone, call them scum and worthless or say something like this; "Now scum using your gay boyfriend or what ever shows me multiple things that are fucked up" Without someone making some sort of comment. But it seems pretty clear why. @Godric: Um...Godric, when did anyone say that in the last few posts? I must have missed it. Also, sorry but, but, just please understand, or try to understand, how what you're saying makes me, someone who likes André and Elly's relationship feel. You're saying they'll have their relationship because its more useful for them to have it. Not because they want to, not because they desire to, not because its what Elly and André feel and want from the bottom of their hearts, but because it'd inconvenience Kazuya to do it any other way. You've already just ruled out that Elly could ever love André more than she could love Kazuya since, as you say, Kazuya can just make Elly love him. Point. No argument. Even if André and Elly got married, had children, spent years together, Kazuya could just waltz in, snap his fingers, and Elly would instantly love him more than she loves André? Can you understand how horrible that feels for someone who likes André/Elly? Can you understand how that doesn't really make me feel better at all. I'll say it again; I don't want André and Elly to be together because Kazuya allows it, I want Elly and André to be together because, from the bottom of their hearts, it is what they both want more than anything else. I want that, if allowed to choose anyone, Elly would choose André. I want Elly to love André no matter what, and André to love Elly no matter what. I want Elly and André to share a mutually exclusive, intimate emotional relationship with each other. Something they have with no one but each other. How...how would you feel if, for example, in Freezing it turns out Louis can always make Satellizer love him if he wanted? That if he wanted Louis could, by snapping his fingers, automatically make Satellizer proclaim; "Louis is my master, I want to offer up everything I have to Louis, I am his obedient servant and want to leave everything to him," whilst moaning and blushing with pleasure and having her body controlled by him? How would you feel if the only reason Satellizer had a relationship with Kazuya is because Louis decides to allow them too because, if he wanted to in this make believe scenario, he could always just snap his fingers and Satellizer would leave Kazuya for him. It really, really, really hurts. It hurts more that, almost certainly I know, we'll never even get to see Morrison or André have a chance to talk about how it makes them feel. Sorry guys, really sorry, this response is so long but I didn't know how else to say it, sorry.